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She is probably just busy thinking of the great Amdi...

Hi Nameless

Perhaps your neighbour is "shock" not a christian, she might be a Bhuddist, Muslim or any number of other religions that chant their prayers at various times of the day...even before they go to sleep....don't you say your prayers before you go to bed...tut tut tut....

Here's an enlightening thought, try asking her.

Cheers

Chris

Hello Tvindalert

Im a new participant at one of the travelling schools. There are a lot of of things I dont understand about this organisation. Why does some of the teachers chant? I live close to one of the teachrs, and most nights I hear these very strange noises from her room. Is these happening at any of the other schools? I really want to know..

Hi

Never went to Lindersvold, I was at Red House, DRH Hornsjo, DIE Tvind and DRH Tvind. With Hornsjo we went to Zambia, had a great time there, 4 of the team go malaria and all got treatment and blood tests etc etc. I managed our medical and food budgest for our team, the only problem we ever had was when the government changed the bank notes and devalued them , giving everyone in the whole country two days to change their money...boy that was nationwide chaos, queues for miles at the banks.

Cheers

Chris

7th Jan 2002

It is great to see that some twenty former TG members are now willing to testify for the crown in the upcoming lawsuits! I guess Tvind's intimidation of Hans la Cour had the opposite effect as originally intended!

 

To the last poster,

Yes, we all know that you don't get luxuries during a Tvind trip...that's not really what Nick's complaint is about anyway. Its about not getting medical attention and lack care about security and the generally lack of organization and experience that ADPP programs have.

 

To the last poster,

Yes, we all know that you don't get luxuries during a Tvind trip...that's not really what Nick's complaint is about anyway. Its about not getting medical attention and lack care about security and the generally lack of organization and experience that ADPP programs have.

 

Hej,

I was at Lindersvold in 1999 and went off to Angola (Benguela)later that year. I read with interest alot of the comments and articles on this site. I agree with some of them but others seem to be poorly informed and sensationalized. I too encountered problems with TG members both in Denmark and Angola but found that in most cases they were open to persuasion and not simple one dimensional creatures whose every thought and emotion was controlled by the great Amdi. For anyone having doubts about going on a solidarity course or whatever they call it now I'd advise them to go ahead and do it. You'll meet like minded people from all over the world and yeah it can be tough going with fundraising and all but asides from that its great craic. You just have to be well prepared beforehand and realise that your not going to have all the luxuries and stuff that you had at home. I was not aware of being 'brainwashed' at any stage and at the end of it all I was asked if I'd like to join the the famed 'Teacher's Group' I asked loads of questions about it to several members and they were all open and honest with me even explaining finances and the like. Nevertheless I declined. If you join up for a course you will most likely have a very good time and the time I had in Angola was the best experience of my life. Also some of that stuff written by the Canadian bloke (Nick I think) who went to Benguela (and stayed in the Cavaco Valley the supposed malaria hotspot. Absolute bollocks by the way) and got very litttle medical attention from project leaders such as Neil Clark and the others, well I was there and at any stage of illness we were brought by our project leaders to the doctors for a malaria test and all medication was bought for us. One member of our team actually got sick in the middle of the countryside during a field trip and was brought back to Benguela immediately and put into the private hospital at Benguela were he stayed overnight, all at ADPP's cost. Mind you I do agree that Jeanette Rasmussen did seem a bit of the wall. I don't know if she is stil there now. It's probably best if she ain't but it shouldn't put people off going, you can bad people who are useless at their jobs in every walk of life. A few bad stories about individuals shouldn't put you off. The majority of teacher's group people I talked to were pretty nice reasonable people and if I was you I'd give one of the courses a chance before you simply dismiss it because of the content of some of the articles in this site.

Hi All

Happy new Year everyone, seems I got archived while I was on holiday...

Question to the poster 7 down looking for Ex Volunteers late 80 early 90s. There weren't so many around at that time as I remember it, it was still a fairly new idea to bring in volunteers to work at DIE, Small schools and so forth.

NB what's with all the nameless posts...?

Cheers

Chris Dec 2nd 2002

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Gldelig Jul og Godt Nytr!

Right on Marianna!!! :)

Merry Christmas Everybody

 

 

 

 

To the last poster: This is exactly what I found in Virginia in the 1980's -- though it sounds like our case was a more extreme. The kids with the biggest problems suffered the most, but they all had pretty big problems. In our case, there were very few "strong" students (educationally) who would have even had the means to grasp the kind of political drivel our TG teachers were trying to convey to them -- The kids who had been placed at the school by the State -- teenagers -- barely knew the alphabet, and knew enough about the world to say what town they'd come from and what town they were living in right then, that's about it. So, of course, there were very few kids in any kind of favor with the TG. Instead, the "strong" students (physically) "ran" the weaker students -- the boys (20 in number) "ran" the girls (5 or 6 in number) and the older (stronger) kids disdainfully ignored their TG section masters (who were at a complete loss as to how to make this kind of disorganized kid fall into line with their teaching philosophies). There was a pile of complaints including rape, assault, leaving children behind on trips, children breaking, entering and stealing from stores, being found off school property drunk and disorderly, stealing neighbor's vehicles, killing a neighbor's cat, seting fire to a neighbor's property..in essence the kids were left to run wild... clear indications that the TG leaders were not adequately trained to bring things into some kind of control... Yet when their license to operate was rescinded, they put on this great act of astonishment --"like a bolt out of a clear blue sky" was how the director put it...AND THEN, THEY APPLIED FOR ANOTHER LICENSE... maintaining that there was NOTHING WRONG... Another indication (there were many more) that they had no real caring for the kids, but were driven to keep the place going for the money. Do you think, nowadays, if Tvind was offered another opportunity to run a school like this, that they would turn it down? I wouldn't count on it.

In Virginia, Tvind took advantage of the State's desperation for adequate housing and support for emotionally disturbed young people (and "speculated" that they wouldn't be found out by the State). That took a couple of years out of the lives of the kids, who foundered there. All the while the TG piously claimed that they were helping make those kids better. In fact they were putting them at further risk. It WAS disgusting.

Several weeks ago on this message board, there was a posting from a TG member extolling the sense of purpose, high responsibilities, and wonderful privilege of being a teacher. In the context of normal, mainstream teaching responsiblities, it was a lyrically written piece (if naive and idealistic). In the context of its having been placed on this board by the TG, I say, "Oh, please, how cynical!" Marianna

I have been working at the Efterskole in Bogense, and has seen plenty, that confirms Sten Thomsens report, and consider the main problem on the schools, that the strong students are the ones who takes the time and strength from the teachers. The lees fortunate students are left to them selfes, and there is not taken prober care of their problems. I have also seen voulenters getting in over their heads, many times, and the only one to pay for their mistakes is the students. Considering that many of them need special attention, and many of the teachers trying to avoid this issues, i find the leaders of these schools not qulilfied to run the schools. This is backed up by the fact, that most (99pct.) outside teachers stays in the job for no more then max. 2 months. Imagen beging a student at these scholls, and having to a just to a new teacher several times in one school year. I belive that the schools is only exsiting because of the money. Every resonable teacher with knowledge of the social experiments will not allow them. Save the children, close the schools and thereby force the goverment to develop the curses that is needed to bring these young people on the right track: The tvind schools are speculating in the missing effort from the politicians to deal with young peoples problems in a prober way. That is discusting.

hey everyone Have anybody been to one of TG businesses. They write here about farms and a corporations they have. Are there any former TG member who has been working there? How does it look? Its not only about schools I guess they make hell a lot of money doing business.

The news of Amdi Pedersen's retreat on Fisher Island has caused visitors here to focus their comments on the issue of TG leadership. Important though this may be, perhaps there is scope to reconsider other aspects of Tvind school life. My own experience includes a two-year stint in the TG as well as time spent in other employment capacities, initially as a volunteer at an 'efterskole.' This experience was extremely valuable for me and as a young person (early twenties) I learned a great deal. We travelled with our students, organised major cultural events such as the Christmas Concerts and 'sommerteater' and particpated in school-wide sports competitions. At no time were our students in any danger or exposed to any credible threat. I knew a number of TG members who have since left the TG, including Steen Thomsen, who presented himself then as a very different person from the author of his scathingly critical report. He was a very caring and committed, gifted teacher who made enormous differences in the students in his care. But I don't see things in the same way he does in his report. It is a great shame, and an even greater waste of talent that he has been left so embittered. I would welcome the opportunity to chat with him. Yes, there were many questions and issues which I raised before and during my time in the TG. These included educational methods, common time and common distribution and economy, cultural assumptions, lifestyle questions, the whole range, but the debates that ensued were worthwhile and contributed to important change in the TG, initally at my school but later on at others. But this did not stop our often socially and economically disadvantaged students from making tremendous strides in their personal development, and attaining creditworthy school grades at the end of the year or upon school-leaving. I was always proud of what my students were able to achieve at our school, and a number of my former students are still in frequent contact with me and have visited me since. My point is that MANY of the efterskole and DIE volunteers (where are you now?) who I knew at the time (late 80s,early 90s) made important contributions to TG and school life. Persistent questioning and argument paid off, right up the chain of command. Many of the prominent persons and leaders of the TG have been 'demonised' by articles on this site and comments by guestbook contributors butI knew many of those named as people willing both to listen and to make often quite radical changes to their mindsets. A number of the claims and insinuations made by articles on this site are totaly wide of the mark and border on scandalous. They are often sensationalist and geared solely to provoke a negative reaction. They fail to tell the whole story, or even a fair proportion of it. The TG is an experiment in living. Yes, I realise we are talking about peoples' lives but experiments are by their very nature imperfect and subject to change. Perhaps I have laid myself open to criticism. Fair enough, but I would like to reorient this debate to focus on school life and the benefits gained by students at the schools in Denmark. I look forward to further comments.

Tomas' (or Amdi's) use of the Native American story is doubly offensive to me, because I know it is truly a Native American story; I remember reading it recently somewhere else. It's another case of Tvind's twisting of somebody else's story to suit its own needs as it sees fit, when it really doesn't make any sense in the context.

Funnily enough, the story about wolves and hate and love is a story presented to the Teachers' Group not so long ago by Mr. Mogens Amdi Petersen himself; - one of his ways, promoting himself as the wise old Godfather, whilst sitting in his tower (another of his "Fisher Islands"), contemplating, gazing at and embracing in his endless Love all them small, small, belligerent people under him, and considering all their small, small thoughts. So, Thomas, when did you sit in that meeting with your Great Master? And where? Now, please inform us properly. Or at least tell your students about who is behind you and above you - and them. Tell them when you went away for one of your meetings with Mr. Amdi Petersen and heard his babble. There is A LOT you will need to tell your students about yourself and "your" school. If you don't, then please stop all your softspoken shite on this site until the moment you really open up. Just tell frankly about the power structure of the Teachers' Group. That is what you owe your students. Start by telling them the true history of why you forward the "Native American story", as cited by you. Just to make a beginning. After that, get yourself out of the Tvind Cult, and get a life in freedom. (You will not need to lie anymore, not even to your students). By the way, the "Native American story" was sent to you, you mention. By whom? Name? And are you sure the story hasn't been produced by your Master himself? (He sometimes writes such stories to make himself mysterious and impressive.) I feel sure you also remember other texts by Amdi Petersen, Thomas? Remember all the times you have had even big problems finding head and tail in his texts as they are most often not at all as clear as the one presented by you on this site? I guess you realise readers on this site understand the wolf-hate-and-love-text as a way of once again pushing off any criticism? ONE THING: I DO NOT HATE YOU. I know how you are trapped as a TG member, but YOU are the one to break your chains, yourself. And just this advice-people will not carry on trusting you if you don't get to terms with your inner Self.

Well, let me finish my epistle from last night, (3rd down, below... somehow the ending got cut off).. remember, old father Christmas is jolly and fat... put the money in his kettle, NOT the pot of that grim, skinny Dane, Amid P...

"except it is almost impossible to change it if you are in TG, because you will have no means to it and that creates frustration among a lot of people."

BINGO!!!! DING! DING! DING!

You win a cookie:)

And why do you think that the TG has been set up this way? You are getting there my friend, keep on working on it, you will be out of Tvind in no time...

Hatred or love. The tale still makes sense for all of us

From the Native American story you've shared with us, (Tomas, I'm assuming?), I see that you interpret the actions of those of us who question Tvind's activities as "hatred." I find it interesting and curious that you leap to that interpretation... that it appears to you that we are acting out of hate, instead of ... common sense, or a general acknowledgement that there is a (BIG) problem we wish to see 'righted,' or even reasoned 'outrage' --with the explanations for the reasonableness of that outrage appearing right in front of us on this site, if not having been gleaned from our own experiences!!! I believe outrage can be channeled logically and deliberately , as most of the persons contributing stories to this website are expressing themselves logically, and factually. I see hatred as being blind, uncontrolled and unreasoning.

For myself, I don't identify my feelings toward Tvind, or any of it's programs, or Tvindies in general, or even Amdi, or the TG bigwigs, as hatred. As a former teacher, I guess I feel the same way about them, as I would a group of potentially unmanageable 'behavior disordered' students . I acknowledge the history and I appraise the realities of the current behavior. I am always careful to remember to acknowledge whatever the humanity and vulnerability and strengths and goodness of those subjects might be, as well as potential areas where those subjects could act in ways that would be hurtful to themselves or others, and I respond accordingly. Note that living in denial of any of the issues, OR living in hatred of the subjects, does nothing to assist either them in growing, or me in my ability to work beneficially with them. In fact, I would ask you to notice that this approach has nothing at all to do with hatred. It is simply a realistic, mature (and professional) response.

Well, enough of this, tonight... I wish you all (you, too, Tomas, really!)a Merry Christmas/God Jul, and a peaceful New Year. May all the work you do in service to your fellow human beings be bright, ethical, honestly offered, productive, culturally sensitive, and genuinely beneficial to its intended recipients, wherever they are... And remember... old father Christmas is jolly and fat,

"Whould you get angry if someone start to demand where you spend your private money?"

I certainly would, particularly if my co-workers demanded that I put my money into some shit like Flleseje...

NO you did not get it, no one will demand you to put your money into anywhere unless you want it yourself. I mean you get your wages and you have your own right without giving any explanations to spend your own earned money into whatever you want to. TG members take their wages and place them into their own created fund. Then they spend these money (their own money) to whatever they feel like. They build a school or start a project, buy an appartement in Miami etc. What I want to say is if I am in TG I would get insulted when someone start to demand from me to account on my own wages. Ok I am not talking here about funds they got from the state. Basically Tg is not about money it is about a life style and everyone is free to choose what life you want to leave, except it is almost impossible to change it if you are in TG, because you will have no means to it and that creates frustration among a lot of people.

Isn't it funny that whenever the Tvindies run out of arguments they start focusing on our oh so destructive "hate" toward them?

I for one am against Tvind out of love for my fellow man, my wish is that as few people as possible (pref. none!) get sucked in and exploited by them.

Merry X-mas to you all!

Chief Tomas speaks with forked tongue. Ugh.

Yes, much better to tell stories about wolves than address the questions and problems about the TG....btw, another good story apropos of the TG is Animal Farm....especially the poor horse who always tried to work harder and ended up going to the knacker.....Lars

A little story we got sent to us at CCTG that I would like to share with you all.

* The Two Wolves Within *

An old Grandfather said to his grandson, who came to him with anger at a friend who had done him an injustice... "Let me tell you a story. I too, at times, have felt great hate for those who have taken so much, with no sorrow for what they do. But hate wears you down, and does not hurt your enemy. It's like taking poison and wishing your enemy would die. I have struggled with these feelings many times. It is as if there are two wolves inside me. One is good and does no harm. He lives in harmony with all around him and does not take offense when no offense was intended. He will only fight when it is right to do so, and in the right way. But...the other wolf... ah! The littlest thing will send him into a fit of temper. He fights everyone, all of the time, for no reason. He cannot think, because his anger and hate are so great. It is helpless anger, for his anger will change nothing. Sometimes it is hard to live with these two wolves inside me, for both of them try to dominate my spirit." The boy looked intently into his Grandfather's eyes and asked, "Which one wins, Grandfather?" The Grandfather smiled and quietly said, "The one I feed." -- A Native American tale told many times around the Sacred Fire

Annsofi, I was never a member of the TG, but I did teach for a short time at a Tvind run school in the US... the responses you got are not at all unusual... After telling one of my very best friends the story of my experiences, his response was: "Well, if what you say is true..." I felt like my believability was forever diminished in his eyes...( and with his comment, my trust in that friendship was forever diminished in my eyes...)... My youngest sister has (upon being shown Tvindalert and having read through much of it), confessed to me that when I got home from Ake Pecha, she remembers thinking that I'd lost it... that I'd gone crazy. I learned to be secretive about my having worked at Ake Pecha, especially during job interviews, because how could I admit that I had worked with children in such a strange and neglectful place.

But the story is so crazy and unbelievable, isn't it? The Tvindalert site has helped me so much to regain a sense that I really did see what I thought I saw, that I really did go through what I went through, and that what my fellow American teacher pieced together about what appeared to be happening, WAS happening... We weren't crazy!!!

It is so sad that we all went through this... most people who get involved in Tvind programming are very well intentioned going into it.. yet many have been really hurt by their involvement with Tvind.

I am glad there is this forum for sharing experiences and ideas... it sounds like it's been as helpful for you as it's been for me... Marianna

For many years I was alone with my toughts, and when I told people about my experienses as a teacher at Tvind, the reaction was mistrust: "noo,could it be that bad..aren`t you overreacting?!". Well, I wasn`t, and now after the last times "bad" publicity and after hours of reading these sites I know I`m not alone either. Unfortunately. Annsofi

I have been involved in several Danida projekts, and the salaries payed for tvind members involvement in tvind projects suprise me. Only the most experienced and well educated in the projects I have been involved in, can match the saleries that the Tvind organisation pays its project-leaders. I wounder why somebody would pay someone with only pour competances that kind of money. Wouldn't they be better spend in humanitarien projekts right away, insted of being transferred to other foundations ore companies, in such a suspicious way?

Richard Arnaud (France)

"Whould you get angry if someone start to demand where you spend your private money?"

I certainly would, particularly if my co-workers demanded that I put my money into some shit like Flleseje...

Yes, but if this is even in part from clothes donations this is essentially *other people's* money.

And:

* what 'fund'? * what exactly is the money used for? * how accountable is it? * do people giving old clothes in Europe realise their gift is not supporting a project leader, but instead is going to Tvind? * if they did, would they still give? * why isn't any of this stated publicly and on their boxes?

 

 

yes, it is so that TG members wages go to the fund, but this is their own choice. Tell me when you get your salary arne't you free to choose what to do with it? Whould you get angry if someone start to demand where you spend your private money?

On the question of how much money Tvind 'makes' from its projects, I don't think anyone has mentioned the financing of Teachers Group Project leaders. As I understand it (any way, this is what I have been told) the project leaders are paid quite high salaries in line with the kind of sums qualified aid workers abroad usually get - this is perfectly normal. These salaries are financed from the sale of old clothes in Europe and eastern Europe. Again, so far, quite normal.

Where DAPP and co differ from the usual NGO world is that the project leaders never actually see the money. Because of the 'common time, common economy' principle, which is all highly principled and very laudable, they have opetd to be paid pocket money and expenses rather than a salary. If the salaries are paid out as project costs on paper, in practice the money either stays with or is returned to one of the Tvind financial funds somewhere. With, what is it?, say 250 project leaders each earning say $60,000 that is a lot of money with big accountability and tax implications.

This could also have something to do with the persistent reports of suitcases stuffed with money being carried by TG members by plane from southern Africa to Veije, as claimed in the Danish TV documentary this year. There certainly seems to be something to explain here.

Any comments?

 

heh, well I have to agree that you are right on that one.

But even so, it does show that tvind is not making 'mega profit' from these volunteer programs.

They are probably breaking even, which is what they should officially be doing

 

 

 

Actually opportunity cost is the cost of doing one thing as opposed to doing another. So the correct use of this would be the amount of money you could earn during the eight months of working with Tvind in the US minus the costs of supporting yourself in the US and Africa for 14 months which you estimate as $7000.

Assume that you have a 40 per week job that pays $7/hr (fairly low pay by the way). In eight months you would earn 40 * 7 * 34.5 weeks = $9,660 so the opportunity cost of doing a CCTG program versus going on your own is $1660.

But then again you don't get the "educational experience" of fundraising... :)

Lars

i dont think so even in denmark you can make the cv look good, you just dont mention tvinds name.

only Denmark and 50/50% sweeden would recognise tvind,humana, any other country mainly uk/france/germany etc would not know or care usa only might recognise planet aid, I have read Harvard reports and lecture notes, praising humana as 1 ngo in a list of many,

ON a cv the name is fine. if your worried dont say tvind, which you would not be working for anway, you would have been working for adpp or dapp which have quite good names around the world,

In denmark or sweeden you worked for adpp , none in dnemark knows who that is, not the recruiting office anyway, or you were simply working in africa for a foreign orgnaisation in partnership with major ngo's

"Doing this program also looks very good on your cv for future jobs you might apply for"

Not if any of those future jobs happen to be in Northern Europe!!!

This is what your cv might look like to an employer in say, Denmark:

1993-1997 Smallville High (honor roll, debating society, football team) 1997-2001 Metro College (dean's list, peer counseling) 2001-2004 Cult Membership (hmm...) 2004-...

 

Another point. (see also post below this counter to lars)

To those saying that the figures quoted as costing the participant if he were to live himself for those 14 months , not being met by tvind since their costs are so much lower.

Basically that is not the point. I would guess some of you know what opportunity cost is? It means that it does not matter what the costs to tvind are (or how cheaply they can put you through the program).

what matters is the cost to each individual if he were not doing this program. The cost of living yourself own flat (very low quality sub standard) 300 a month. Sub standard food, 200 a month. 500 a month x 8 is 4,000 , + the cost of 6 months you would be in africa food/accomodation minus the glorius sunshine people/women. 2,000 = total 6,000 (not including if u were to take own flight to africa then+1,000 =7,000) That is the cost to live by yourself 8 months and then go to africa for 6 months.

Now the cost of working with tvind for a year. If you are in the 75% who does not pay initial fee to join program then your costs so far for 8 months are 0. you are also in the 75% that sucks at street fundraising and does some invented job, your financial cost for those 5 or 6 weeks easy work?? 0

The real cost then to joining the program for most participants could be noted as 0, and the opportunity cost of not joining as 7,000

(please see post below this for other important general info)

DL ex volunteer dvldvl@hotmail.com

To Lars and others

You are saying then that financially you are getting half of what you pay. Now that is in theory (according to your figures) if people are actually meeting those targets. Have you been a volunteer with this organisation??

I have. no one makes these targets maybe one person a year out of 900. 75% dont pay the initial program costs (more pay in usa programs very little pay the initial fee in denmark)

And for fundraising, again most people are lucky if they make 25% of the target on the street. Most of the time they suck so bad the school has to make other plans and effectivley invent jobs which do not exisit so the people can finish their fundraising. they pay the students fees from these 'invented jobs' thus incuring more financial loss. Typical job might be painting a few walls in one of the schools which dont need painting. Do this for a few weeks and you have earned the easiest $3,000 you will in your entire life.

So all in all, I would say, if you average it out, tvind makes no profit form these schools, (a loss on most students) the volunteers themselves do get a useful learning experience and they dont not have to be degree educated or whatever to get it .

Alternative gap year programs for volunteering/teaching abroad can cost up to $3000 for only 12 weeks. (how much profit do these organisations make form it???)

Doing this program also looks very good on your cv for future jobs you might apply for.I know very many people form my time as a volunteer who have gone on to reach the highest tier in their chosen industry. And their first break came because of this 1 year gap year with Humana. When your 23 just finished your degree and then gone to Africa for a year and helped manage a project or been responsible for educating 2,000 aids victims that makes for some good employment prospects.

DL

It would be interesting to know the cost per squarmeter the schools pay rent to the owners of their schoolbuildings. How big percentage from the schools' budget goes to paying rent? And further, who are the owners of the schoolbuildings? A fund, a company...owned by whom? I a w:Who takes care of that money? Any headmaster from any Tvind-school feeling urge to answer?

Sigge

 

 

Oops...the formatting got messed up. Here are my estimates on the direct costs of a CCTG program.

Food $ 480 Flights $ 1,650 Housing $ 752 Utilities/Phone $ 200 Vaccinations $ 150 Misc $ 600 subtotal $ 3,832

35 percent overhead $ 1,341 TOTAL $ 5,173

I'm really not sure how one should cost the "educational costs" of a CCTG program since it appears that the majority of the education is the TG's experiential education, i.e., fund-raising, housekeeping, that doesn't cost the TG anything and is essential for the continued functioning of the place.

Regards......Lars

I am not arguing that TG programs are not less expensive but that their costs are so low (after all a point of pride is getting things for free) that there is plenty of money account for.

For example, take a CCTG program of 14 months. 6 months of prep in Yreka, CA, 6 months in Africa and 2 months back in Yreka. The cost of the program is $3,300 and participants are expect to raise an additional $7000 for a total of $10,300. This money covers food, accomindations, any "educational" materials, flights to Africa, vaccinations. According to the CCTG website, Humana covers the expenses in Africa....so let's do the math.

Food = $2 per day * 30 days * 8 months Flight = $1650 (what I could find for a flight from SFO to Harare, Zimbabwee - I'm sure there are cheaper ways to go) Housing = I found a listing for a two bedroom appartment in Yreka for $376 to judge what "market rate" is. Assume 2 people per room = $94 per month * 8 months = $752 Utilities/Phone = $25 per month * 8 months = 200 Vaccinations = I don't really know, how about $150 Misc. = 600

This comes out to a grand total of $3832 of direct costs. Assume 35 percent overhead (to cover admin and outreach) and you still only get about $5200 or about half of what people pay and fundraise

Of course these figures are not the actual cost structure of CCTG but I bet they are close. You can fiddle around a bit but still have a lot left.

Lars

The fact of the matter is that price is really beyond the point here. The difference between Tvind and most other Development charities is that Tvind has a sect-like structure complete with an old guru at the top sippin' cocktails on his penthouse terrace and laughing his ass over both all the idealisitc young volunteers and all the old wanna-be "hippie" teachers that unknowingly or not fund his lavish lifestyle.

Yours,

*<:-)

Hmm, looks like you guys learned your maths at the Moscow School of Economics back in "the day"...

Hello

I like that we are talking mathematics here. Food, housing, transport, airtravel etc costs some money for sure. If you look upon what it costs to do other volunteer programs is it very cheap to do it at one of the Travelling Folk High schools. Check out volunteer programs by yourseelves. You have for ex. Cross cultural solutions that charges a considerable bigger amount for much shorter programs

 

hmmm...but if paid the entire amount in cash you would miss out (gasp) on the "learning experience" of fundraising......

a couple more comments on the math here, while it may cost 300 pounds for a flat and 200 pounds for food on your own these are not the costs that accrue to a TG school. I've always heard the figure of $2 bucks a day for food and who knows how much mortage the TG is paying itself for the housing....during fundraising its free. So the "cost" to Tvind is hardly 4000 pounds unless you include the salaries of the TG members who are busy recruiting the next crop of volunteers.....

 

too many lies and myths around here, most people just exagerate to feel important or make themself seem 'cool'

Here are some basic truths about costs/fundraising etc

Usually you pay 2,500 pounds or abou $3,500 to join a school in Denmark for 14 months. However, 75% of people do not pay this they do netup whcih involves doing a very very easy job for a month or 2 within the organisation , or they get a scholarship and start right away paying nothing.

Now that leaves the fundraising whcih is about 3,000 pounds,. Instead of paying that amount which most young people could never afford you can fundraise your money, (If you payd it in cash you would not have to fundraise). No matter how bad people say it is, it is a fact it has to be done, the schools needs this 3,000 for your participation in the program. You know this beofre you join.

Now comes the good bit.why complain or moan, saying you are being ripped off.?? Think about it. 14 months is a long time, 8 months in Denmark 6 months africa. If you live in own flat or house back home how much is the rent?? in Uk will cost me at least 300 a month for 1 bedroom flat. For food 200 a month. That is 500 a month x 8 (8 months Denmark) = 4,000 pounds. Then you still have the housing in Africa (cheaper i know but still...) and also you are given a salary more than the locals earn $200 a month or so for your food and essential items.

The total cost of all this to tvind is around 5,000 pounds. You are fundraising about 3,500 (most people dont reach their target or do netup type jobs which over pay and are very generous for the fundraising) On average then each person i would say fundraises 1,000 pounds on the street and makes up rest of money doing easy jobs within the organisation.

so that is 4,000 extra tvind is spending on each person to do this course just in housing/food costs. That is not taking into account the costs of the education/special events like the new year concert/cost of having teahers helping/listening to your whining all the time.

In conclusion, if you look at those basic facts , you will see the truth. and not make up lies about how tvind is taking your money

DL ex volunteer Denmark

 

 

The Appeals Court of Western Denmark just ordered DRH-P Sejrens Vej to pay back 4.9 million DKR it received as education funding. Turns out the students spent too much time fundraising and to little hitting the books! Similar cases against the other DRH's likely.

Folketinget havde beget overgreb mod et mindretal. Nogle f, blandt dem Venstres Birthe Rnn Hornbech, deltog ikke i jagten p Tvind. Hun stemte ikke for at lukke Tvind-skolerne. Hun sagde rent ud, at det var grundlovsbrud. Og hjesteret gav hende medhold. Birthe Rnn Hornbech ngtede selvsagt ikke at medvirke til den ulovlige lov mod Tvind, fordi hun elsker skole-samfundet, men fordi hun rent ud er et ordentligt menneske. Det er betegnende, at tidligere undervisningsminister Bertel Haarder trods sin baggrund i de frie skoler stemte for den ulovlige lov mod Tvind. Vi kunne da ikke holde med Tvind, som han fik sagt til Ekstra-Bladet. Hos Haarder ligger friheden i gode hnder.

Tvind vandt i hjesteret. Folketinget tabte. Folketinget havde sigtet og dmt Tvind for at bryde loven, men Tvind gik fri. Det var folketinget, der havde forbrudt sig mod loven, endda grundloven. Det giver ikke hverken skole-samfundet eller Tvind-fonden ret til at te sig anderledes i forhold til landets love end alle andre. Men som sagen ser ud, s gr Tvind jo med loven, hvad s mange danske virksomheder synes at gre. Samme dag som politiet hvdede, at ulands-penge gik tilbage til Tvind, kom det frem, at en dansk ulands-bistand p 170 millioner nsten purt og rent var get tilbage til danske virksomheder.

Modsat Tvind-samfundet, der er blevet frifundet til nu, har den ene virksomhed efter den anden under socialdemokratisk ledelse vist sig at vre ulovligt drevet med alvorlig misbrug af midler. Tnk, hvad en morgen-politistorm mod alt, hvad der er under socialdemokratisk formandskab, kunne fre til. Men nej, vi er da et retssamfund. Retten afhnger af, hvor man politisk hrer hjemme. Sig mig, om politiet besger dig om morgenen, og jeg skal sige dig, hvilket politisk parti du er medlem af.

Politikerne har straks travlt med at fre politi-undersgelsen ind p Christiansborg. Der skal laves om p reglerne i en fart. End ikke hjesterets dom mod folketinget for grundlovsbrud fr politikerne til at holde fingrene af fadet og tie, indtil retten har talt.

Jeg afskyer Tvind. Derfor er det min pligt at vrne Tvinds frihed og at fastholde, at de er uskyldige, indtil det modsatte er bevist. Det er ikke bare min pligt. Det er enhver danskers pligt. Det er den arv, vi har med os.

Poul Erik Se 28. april 2001

Gengivelse af artikler i enmandsavisen er tilladt, nr kilden oplyses.

Enmandsavisen

The following is a translation from an article on Jyllands-Postens website, www.jp.dk:

Amdi Petersen arrested in the US

Supreme Tvind leader, Mogens Amdi Petersen, has been arrested by police in the United States. This has been confirmed by Holstebro chief of police, Jens Kaasgaard.

- Yes, he has indeed been apprehended. The arrest took place in the early hours of Sunday at a Los Angeles airport where he was in transit between Africa and Mexico. The arrest took place after a request from Holstebro Police, Jens Kaasgard said in an interview with the Ritzau news agency. The arrest of Mogens Amdi Petersen in Los Angeles at 1:30 AM on Sunday comes almost exactly two months to the date after Holstebro Police secretly had international arrest warrant issued on him. - We asked to have him arrested because we suspected that he would (not show up in court) if charges were to be brought against him. We have had an international arrest order out on him since December 18th, Kaasgaard said He did not wish to go into specific details when asked why the police believed he would try and avoid a court case. - But we started to suspect (that he wouldn't be showing up at a trial) against him after having read some specific documents, Kaasgaard said. The idea that Mogens Amdi Petersen would try and avoid a court case in Denmark is nothing new to Holstebro police. - We have been suspecting this all along. But we had to do wait until now when we feel that we have a good chance of putting him away. Our suspicion has definitely grown lately. The documents we found in the computers (seized from Tvind last year) shows that Amdi indeed is pulling all the strings in Tvind. Jens Kaasgaard did not wish to speak about the specific findings in the documents. - It is too early, as we haven't talked to the other defendants yet. Mogens Amdi Petersen was arrested by the US Federal Bureau of Investigation in Los Angeles at 1.30 AM local time just as he was arriving on a flight from London. - According to the information we have he was travelling from Africa to Mexico, says Jens Kaasgaard It was Ringkbing city court that approved the international warrant against Mogens Amdi Petersen who has, along with six other Tvind brass, had preliminary charges brought against him for alleged tax abuse and abuse of trust amounting to 75 million DKK in connection with Tvind's humanitarian trust. Amdi's court-appointed defence lawyer, Jrgen Quade Andersen of Herning appealed the decision to the Western Denmark court of appeals which in turn upheld the city court's decision to put out an international warrant on Amdi Petersen. - But he has in fact been wanted since December 18th. We are very interested in knowing where he is now that we are beginning the final questioning in the case and we believe that it is of great importance for the investigation that we know where he is and ensure his presence (at the trial), said Jens Kaasgaard. Holstebro police is asking that Mogens Amdi Petersen be extradited to Denmark. The extradition request will be made to the American authorities through the Danish ministry of justice. If Mogens Amdi Petersen resists extradition a court case on the matter could according to Jens Kaasgaard, take up to 18 months. Jens Kaasgaard is confident that the extradition request will go through. - We believe that we can have him extradited with the evidence we have now. It may take time, but we can do it. If Mogens Amdi Petersen on the other hand does not resist extradition he could, according to Kaasgaard, "be here in a matter of days". If Mogens Amdi Petersen chooses to voluntarily be extradited to Denmark he must be brought before a judge within 24 hours. This would then take place at the Ringkbing courthouse. Mogens Amdi Petersen's arrest comes after police has been investigating a number of Tvind people including Mogens Amdi Petersen and Tvind CEO, Poul Jrgensen. The two are, along with five other Tvind members charged with gross abuse of trust and tax abuse amounting to 75 million DKK. Last April the investigation reached a climax when police raided eight central Tvind locations nation-wide. During the subsequent search police confiscated a number of computers, including one belonging to Mogens Amdi Petersen. Several hundreds of thousands of documents have been found on the computers, including some that according to police prove the alleged misuse of the funds taken from Tvind's humanitarian trust. Mogens Amdi Petersen and his five co-defendants are under suspicion for having deceived the taxation authorities by using the trust money unlawfully. The contributions to the trust were tax-exempt because they were to be spent on not-for-profit schemes, but the police suspects Amdi Petersen and his people instead used the tax-free millions on Brazilian plantations and a TV project in Oceania.

 

The FBI just arrested Amdi at LAX!!!!!

I am attending the IICD in MIchigan right now and am reading all this and don't know what to do.. I have only been here for a couple of months.. I am really confused about the whole organization.. I had planned to go to Zambia in July.. If anyone can give me some advice It would be appriciated. Christy Linsenmaier seejayl@hotmail.com

Very nice website!!!!!

Hi Drew [Gatlin],

It's me Ian! (Jones from Aberystwyth ILS and Italian), I am not if you will remember me. I just got back from my year in Italy. Back to Aberystwyth now, I can't wait to finish.

I am sorry to hear about your ordeal with the Tvind Cult - I had bit of narrow escape with Italian Jehovah's Witnesses myself, although it was not as bad as you went through.

I hope everything is fine with you now.

Best Wishes

Ian. ijj8@aber.ac.uk (Aberystwyth) ijones_clary@libero.it (home)

Hi Drew [Gatlin],

It's me Ian! (Jones from Aberystwyth ILS and Italian), I am not if you will remember me. I just got back from my year in Italy. Back to Aberystwyth now, I can't wait to finish.

I am sorry to hear about your ordeal with the Tvind Cult - I had bit of narrow escape with Italian Jehovah's Witnesses myself, although it was not as bad as you went through.

I hope everything is fine with you now.

Best Wishes

Ian. ijj8@aber.ac.uk (Aberystwyth) ijones_clary@libero.it (home)

have good day people!

I have just read "The light from Fyr". It was very interesting and made me sad and angry.But I had some laughs to, when recognizing some expressions. Hrt!!! AnnSofi

You know John, that actually WOULD explain Tvind's "SETI" programme;) !

*<:-)

Hmm, looks like we have yet another paranoid old TG member ready for the asylum on our hands...

I HOPE AS WELL THAT THEY WILL SAVE NOT ONLY OUR WORLD BUT ALL UNIVERCE YOU DIDN'T KNOW? CHECK IN WWW.CIA.GOV/DK/TG/MARS THAT MANY YEARS AGO TG BOUGHT BIG PROPERTY IN MARS, IF NOT ALL??? BECAUSE THEY FOUND LIVE THERE YOU KNOW THEY HAVE PEOPLE IN US GOVERMENT THEY HAVE BUILD TOWNS THERE, BUT IS STILL SECRET, AND YOU KNOW WHAT I THINK HALF OF THEM ARE ALIENS!!! PEOPLE THINK ABOUT IT!!! THEY AREN'T HUMANS!!! GOOD NIGHT AND SLEEP WELL IN YOUR BED CASTLE

JOHN COMMON

I can't speak for Sigge, personally I am a member of the WWF, sponsor a child in Africa and am a regular contributor to the Red Cross and AIDSfondet.

It will however, be a cold day in hell before I would even consider giving any of my hard-earned money to Tvind.

*<:-)

I hope you and Amdi save the world ciao-ciao!

How can you bring whether or not someone is pro-war into this debate? I find it hard to believe that the type of person who wants to do voluntary work could be the type that wants war. It is not even a point of question. I disassociated myself from Tvind and Humana because i felt i would be ashamed to admit that i had been a part of it. It is based on corruption and greed and the worst part is that it depends on the naivety of people like yourself to succeed. There are obviously thousands more where you came from but i personally would rather put my positive energy into a project that delivers what it promises and protects the vulnerable instead of taking backhanders from oil companies. As you say, you have your mission. Let's just hope your achievements aren't stunted due to your own inability to see beyond what you have been told.

ok than... is great siggy that you are doing something for others, but maybe you should do some more, much more and you wouldn't have time for this crap i can imagine that you are really fantastic person and you are doing good please tell me where i can find some information about it some projects, educational programmes, actions against HIV/IDS man let me know please....

i know that people which want to be volunteers with DRH (www.drh-movement.org) have acces to all information about programmes, rules, projects nand they have choice... they can come talk, talk to students which are in the programme already or just came back from work in the projects don't you thinks so is ok

god give as free choice

i don't know if you are pro war or not i'm saying that is much more evil in this world to worry about than TG everybody will pay someday... for everything is so much hate, violence... i know that time here with all this people can give for any young person, different perspective for live can give live difrent taste i think everybody should do this kind of volunteer programme in their live, will be much better in the world and if, someone don't like way how tvind is doing, than is ok with me free world tvind is working like this, and accept it or not for sure is not for everybody but sure is that everybody are welcome... but for me is more important than volunteer work is really wht this person would like to do with tvind or other org

man i'm quite some time here and i don't feel any smeel, maybe you could tell me where i should looking for, but i will try find some , i will let you know... do you feel some smels something else or this is covering you all smell sence because if i really focus, i can really find much more smelly things, can you imagine is a really waiste of time is so much more you can do that coplain but you really doing good work, man i'm proud of you but you know i will stay, probably like more of us, and i will continue my work and even i will work harder, because of you you will give me more speed to work for good things siggy good luck and good bless you you have your mission i have mine we will see what will be in the end but i'm not woried you know bye bye ciao, ciao

 

 

Having been directed to this website a few days ago i very rapidly reached the decision that i could not fly out to one of the Travelling Folk schools this week as i had been planning to do for some months. I hesitate to call Tvind a cult as i have escaped becoming caught up in it, but a variety of first-person reports and newspaper articles have convinced me that at the very least the entire organisation is corrupt and self-serving to the core. There are those who claim that this web-site is based on exaggeration or downright lies. To coin a very old phrase, 'there's no smoke without fire'. To those who remain convinced that Humana, People to People, Gaia, or whatever else you want to call it, is a genuine and legitimate organisation, i suggest you stop and think. Perhaps your experience was a good one. Does this automatically mean that you haven't been exploited? This is what propaganda and indoctrination achieve. If you have studied Nazi Germany at school you might understand what i am saying. I am sure that some of you will argue against me. However, I see it as a sinister profit-making empire which exploits idealistic and altruistic philanthropists and little else. If the Charity Commission in Britain refuse to recognise them and they have had a variety of charges brought against them in several countries, i for one would rather not be associated with them. Direct me if you will to a website making similar claims about Oxfam or UNICEF. Disappointed as i am, i feel that i have had a very lucky escape.

Deslock I don't know why I bothered (as you apparently refuse to belive anything "bad" about Tvind but after posting the last message I went to website of Politiken, Denmark's major nespaper and did a little search of their archives. I found this article for you, and just in case you didn't pick up any Danish duing your "business affairs" with Tvind I even translated it for you. The article can be seen at http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.sasp?PageID=129248

AIDS-fond vil stoppe Tvind-indsamling

Af /ritzau/

AIDS-Fondet med skuespilleren Susse Wold som prsident og professor Peter Skinhj som formand vil ikke forveksles med Tvind. P et mde i nste uge vil fondet krve, at Tvind ikke lngere bruger det internationale symbol for kampen mod aids - den rde sljfe - ved pengeindsamlinger.

Det skriver JydskeVestkysten.

Lrere og elever fra Tvinds danske institutioner har, som led i en international Tvind-aktion, tidligere i r vret p gaden for at samle penge ind til kampen mod aids i Afrika. Tvind mener at kunne stoppe aids-epidemien i Afrika p tre r, hvis man fr samlet tilstrkkeligt med konomiske midler.

Ved Tvinds frste indsamling fik AIDS-Fondet opringning fra mange mennesker, der ikke var klar over, at det var Tvind, der stod bag indsamlingen.

(18. okt 2000 kl. 03:35)

And here is my translation:

AIDSfondet wants to stop Tvind fundraising

From /ritzau/

The AIDSfondet, with actress Susse Wold as president and professor Peter Skinhj as chairman does not want to be confused with Tvind. In a meeting next week, the fund will demand that Tvind is no longer allowed to use the international symbol for the struggle against AIDS the red ribbon in fundraisings.

This was written in Jydske Vestkysten.

Teachers and students from Tvinds Danish institutions have, as part of an international Tvind action earlier this year been on the streets collecting money for the struggle against AIDS in Africa.

Tvinf thinks it can stop the epidemic in three years if enough funds can be raised.

During Tvinds first fundraising round the AIDSfondet received calls from many people who did not knwow that Tvind had been behind the money gathering.

Oct 18 2000 03:35 AM)

Do you need any *more* "evidence"?

*<:-)

 

Well Deslock, if you had bothered to read the newspaper article that I provided you with, you would see that my claim is in fact substantiated. The AIDS charity wanted Tvind banned from using the red AIDS ribbon in their "fundraising".

It is a shame that you will not be coming back, I shall however still post AIDSfondet's reply to me when I get it...

*<:-)

Hi! As a former student at the tvind school in bogense i must say that some of the things that you write is true. We had to work hard to save up a lot off money and so on. And i still dont know where the money went. But i must say that i had the time of my life staying in denmark and in malawi.Also got so many new friends.And I think that the people which is working with helping "problem kids"at the schoolsreally do a great job!But the peolple i know are not in the teacher group so it might be a difference. lingonboda@hotmail.com

Vivo em Angola mas estou temporriamente em Portugal. Gostaria de saber quem a ADPP. Filomena Alves

Hello webmaster, I just want to ask you about the updating of your site. I have been here now for a while reading the guestbook. This is the only place, which seems to be alive (I think, generally it is good to discuss, whether TG is good or not). All the other places need some rewriting, don't you think so? I mean, if you think, that the "breaking news" section can have the latest entry from 6 months ago...

TG member

To the ciao-one:

Just because I am not a Tvind-supporter, it doesn't mean I am pro-war or pro-starvation of the people. Just because I found Tvind corrupted it doesn't mean I am a passive complainer not doing anything meaningful but writing in this guest-book about the misuse of people's lives that Tvind is responsible of.

Being very disappointed with Tvind doesn't make me hate Tvind. Being against the cheating that Tvind systematically is doing doesn't make me a dreamer, as you said some day you will wake up. I feel very awake already.

I know Tvind by outside and inside. There is a rotten smell that those still inside don't feel, as they have become used to it. Once you stay away a while, you will notice it, the rottening bad bad smell of false hypocrites.

Just because I am not a fan of Amdi's (any more) I am not unproductive or doing nothing to help others. I don't say I couldn't do more, of course I could. But you assuming all others but Tvind people just doing nothing is a typical Tvind-attitude where people are measured by strange means. The more tvind the better you are. This is a strange and narcisstic way of thinking and not very humane nor sympathetic at all.

Sigge

Well thank God Deslock wont be back i could stand him going on about how right Tvind is and how wrong we all are.... i feel sorry for him.

Someone who hated Deslock.

Hey *<:-)

Thanks for replying to my post it is appreciated. So if I am understanding correctly you made this claim without verifying it first through email or getting something from the corresponding agency?

Maybe you will get the information you wanted I dont know. My point is and was very simple:

The conjecture of wrong doing on this site is just that conjecture. To be frank you havent supported your claim, and when you made it you made it absolutely.

"The charity however, never saw any of that money"

Thats pretty clear and direct, yet no supporting documentation is given and now you are waiting for a return email to back this claim? shouldnt you have had the email before the claim was made? How could you possibly know that this statement was fact if you hadnt confirmed it?

Sorry to point you out of the crowd, your a civil poster and this isnt a personal slight at you. I understand emotions run high with this subject, its -crystal- clear from the site replies. Yet this example is why I cant take you all seriously. I mean look at some of the posts here.... bitching and whinning and swearing, im sure I will get a nice reply to this post.

Anyway, you made a matter of fact claim that suggested criminal activity without the backup or something in hand, i think thats clear friend, and sadly to someone who is objective and dosent have an emotional attachment you have shown your hand. I think this example illustrates what this site is all about, maybe just like TVIND, a fraud.

Good luck in your life and what ever you choose, I wont be back

Deslock.

Well ciao seems to think that by cursing alot it makes him/her a threat to people and scares us!!!! He/She must really be under control of Humana!!!! Lets hope for their sake that they get out soon.....while they can!!!

The tvindalert.info site is absolute crap. Of course the schools are going to put on shows for the prep weekends and for when parents come to visit ive seen it all before. The site says about you being a buddist well its no wonder you say all these "wonderful" things about this organisation. I think that you need to listen to some of the stories of former humana participants and listen to what they have to say about the organisation. Remembering that some of these people have been in humana alot longer than you daughter has and they have been to different schools in different countries and these people come from all parts of the world. Maybe IICD is an exception to the humana way but i really believe it isnt they just put on a show for outsiders thats all...

Former participant...

Try this one: www.tvindalert.info

http://www.tvindalert.info/ is good to read... when i'm reading some of this stories, man what a fuck is a purpose for all of this tell me tvindalert people? do something meanning full why you are not writing about medical companies, or weapons factories now goverment of usa will use 3.5 bilion $ for wor with terorism wht a fuck this will cure half of the world, giv them food and knowledge and what about it i hope some day some nice haker will make a nice trick for you tvindalert people is not enought hate and fear in the world you have to do some more bloody hell i'm not blaiming you , you will wake up some day, and this will be very sad day you are very sad people

i think you should start such a org, and try to run it i think you will drawn in your own shit someday

ciao :o and i hope some day you will do something productive and good for others

No it tends to happen a lot, doesn't it?

Tomas must not be doing a very good job...

Ha Ha Ha people left CCTG well thats nothing new!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Deslock,

I am waiting for the "AIDSfondet", Denmarks national AIDS charity to respond to my email, as soon as they do, I will let you know.

While we wait, you can check out a news item from Jyske Vestkysten (DK newspaper) about the matter here on the site (scroll down a few paragraphs): http://www.tvindalert.org.uk/projects/hope.htm

If you want, you can try emailing the AIDS charity yourself at info@aidsfondet.dk

cheers,

*<:-)

Hey people, Whats up, Did you hear about the 3 participants from the oct/sep team at CCTG. They quit the program because they relised that they were been exploited for their williness to help and their good patience. I guess thats what you get when you join up with a "CULT"........

More information about this will follow in the following weeks...

 

Tvind Alert web site received a record number of clicks yesterday - a lot must have been because of the article below in Portuguese. Can anyone translate it? The link is at:

http://programas.rtp.pt/gesnews/index_e.php?cod_not=371&cod_sec=100

Investigao VO DE CORAO ABERTO E ACABAM DE BOLSA VAZIA

A boa vontade dos que se oferecem para incorporar um projecto humanitrio amortece com as condies chocantes que reveste a aco da HUMANA, sobretudo em frica, onde se crismou como ADPP - Ajuda de Desenvolvimento do Povo para o Povo

 

No final do ano 2000, a ateno de um jovem portugus, desejoso no s de uma oportunidade de emprego mas tambm de dedicar o seu tempo a uma organizao internacional, foi captada por um apelativo anncio afixado no Instituto Portugus da Juventude, em Lisboa - "HUMANA - Procuram-se voluntrios para trabalhar em projectos humanitrios de desenvolvimento".

Ricardo Tom tomou a iniciativa de contactar a dita organizao. Foi ento informado que para participar neste projecto de voluntariado teria que pagar 2500 coroas dinamarquesas, (350 euros) por cada ms de frequncia, nas escolas da HUMANA. Foi-lhe dito, inclusivamente, que a "HUMANA People to People" desenvolvia, naquele momento, mais de 150 projectos em frica e mobilizando mais de 300.000 pessoas supervisionadas por cerca de 3.000 instrutores, devidamente, credenciados. Ricardo, face s elevadas quantias exigidas, acabou por no abraar a causa. Mas h quem tenha aderido e pago uma factura elevada. Joo Albergaria, engenheiro zootcnico, um caso exemplar. Aps ter obtido o contacto da organizao, atravs de um anncio semelhante aos que semanalmente so publicados no Expresso ("Volunteers needed for Zambia and China"), Joo partiu, em Abril de 1996, motivado pelo esprito de misso para a escola "Den Reisende Hogskole", da UFF (outra das designaes da HUMANA), na Noruega.

A formao "humanitria" pela qual tinha pago mais de 2.500 euros no correspondia de todo ao esprito anunciado.

"Parti de corao aberto, sem defesas. Tinha a sensao de estar a abraar uma causa justa e digna" mas, passado alguns meses, percebeu que "algo estava mal".

Uma das regras da organizao, contratualizada, logo chegada escola, a obrigatoriedade de os alunos recolherem durante os seis meses de durao do curso, cerca de 6.000 euros atravs da venda de postais. "A venda de postais e a lavagem cerebral para futura assimilao no Teachers Group so os principais objectivos do dito curso de preparao", relembrou o engenheiro. Joo revelou, por outro lado, a existncia de uma situao de "guerra permanente" entre formadores e formandos "guerra" que inclua "insultos pessoais, presso sobre os alunos atravs de reunies interminveis, lavagem cerebral e tentativa de aniquilao da auto-confiana de cada um".

Exemplo desta situao foram "dois casos de pessoas que perderam, no decorrer dos seis meses, toda a autoconfiana, sentindo-se incapazes e desistindo de ir para frica ltima da hora".

A recolha de roupa processa-se "em toda a Europa em contentores colocados estrategicamente. Camies alugados pela organizao transportam-nas para armazns onde feita a triagem da mesma, de acordo com o tipo de peas e sua qualidade", revelou Joo, que trabalhou em armazns na Finlndia e Noruega.

Uma vez chegado Zmbia, o jovem portugus apercebeu-se que os ditos "investimentos nos recursos humanos da organizao eram os voluntrios, subordinados ao princpio do "tempo, trabalho e dinheiro em comum".

Em contraste com esta "franciscana" realidade, a representante da HUMANA auferia um salrio mensal de 4.200 euros. Durante o meio ano em que esteve, na Zmbia, Joo considera que "no aprendeu nada dada a grosseira falta de preparao dos professores".

Em suma, o ex-voluntrio descreve a HUMANA como a "testa de ferro de uma seita". Joo Albergaria escreveu, entretanto, uma "carta-denncia" s autoridades dinamarquesas e deu vrios depoimentos, quer em Portugal quer no estrangeiro. Actualmente, est integrado num projecto humanitrio.

A HUMANA adoptou, no continente africano, uma das suas mltiplas designaes, a de Ajuda de Desenvolvimento de Povo para Povo (ADPP).

Esta associao, segundo a HUMANA, "fornece roupa para financiar diversas actividades em pases africanos", nomeadamente, Angola, Guin-Bissau, Moambique, Zmbia, Zimbabwe, etc.

Segundo a informao disponibilizada pela organizao na Internet, a ADPP gere "projectos de ajuda ao desenvolvimento", com pendor humnitrio: escolas, programas agrcolas, sanitrios e campanhas de preveno da SIDA. A ADPP controla, ainda, empresas altamente produtivas e sofisticadas como as plantaes de eucalipto e trigo, no Zimbabwe.

Em Angola, o orfanato da ADPP, no Caxito, na provncia do Huambo tornou-se, internacionalmente, famoso quando, em Julho, de 2000, cerca de meia centena de crianas foram raptadas por rebeldes pertencentes UNITA. O assunto causou comoo, a nvel mundial, embora tenha tido um final, relativamente, feliz com o regresso das crianas, ss e salvas. Ao orfanato da ADPP, no Caxito. Este incidente foi, curiosamente, omitido da "homepage" da ADPP, em Angola. Em declaraes RTP Multimedia, o antigo mdico pessoal de Jonas Savimbi e representante da Unita, Carlos Morgado, afirmou "a ADPP est intimamente ligada s Foras Armadas Angolanas e ao Futungo de Belas (presidncia)". Mas as ligaes da ADPP ao poder angolano no se esgotam aqui. A responsvel da organizao, em Angola, a dinamarquesa Rikhe Vikholm integra o Conselho de Curadores e a Comisso Permanente do Conselho de Curadores da Fundao Eduardo dos Santos (FESA). O conhecido membro da UNITA referiu, ainda, as ligaes existentes entre a ADPP e certas organizaes consideradas internacionalmente "pouco transparentes ou mesmo mafiosas, como por exemplo a multinacional petrolfera Ranger Oil". Por sua vez, o movimento TVIND ALERT, ou Movimento Contra a TVIND/Humana/ADPP www.tvindalert.org fundado, em 1992, pelo escritor dinamarqus , Bent Johannesen denunciou a teia de relaes que liga a ADPP ao dinheiro das companhias petrolferas e as alegadas relaes com a SONANGOL, a Companhia Nacional de Petrleo. A Unio Europeia deu instrues aos seus Gabinetes, em Moambique, Tanznia, Zimbabwe e Nambia para no terem qualquer contacto com a ADPP - alegando que os projectos da organizao no beneficiavam os autctones, pelo contrrio, a roupa vendida a to baixo preo, dado que obtida gratuitamente e distribuda graas ao trabalho do voluntariado, prejudicava o comrcio local.

Numa tentativa de credibilizar a sua actuao perante a opinio pblica, mas acima de tudo, perante as Empresas e os Governos que colaboram com a Organizao, a ADPP disponibilizou, no seu "site", uma listagem das instituies com as quais mantm parcerias. Estamos, obviamente, a falar de apoio logstico e monetrio. Um dos parceiros citados a prestigiada ONG, Oxfam International. Contudo, em resposta a um "mail" da RTP Multimedia, a Oxfam refere que "os contactos com a ADPP so escassos e evitados".

 

 

Voltar

HUMANA A SEITA SEM F VESTE-SE NA RUA PORTUGUESES SENSVEIS E IMPOSTOS DISTRADOS VESTURIO A AFLUIR COM CMARAS A VER VO DE CORAO ABERTO E ACABAM DE BOLSA VAZIA MSCARAS DOS NEGCIOS NA ESCRAVATURA MODERNA SEITA SEM RELIGIO BASEADA NO LUCRO

Ruth Joined the LG ?

Didn't know that, last I heard she was in Japan and that was only a short while after she got back from Angola, so if she joined it must have been for about a month at the most.

Cheers

Chris

Hey *<:-)

I just read your post on the fund raising for worlds aids day.

"The charity however, never saw any of that money"

A quote from your post, can you provide documentation for this claim?

I will be very interested to see it as this will confirm to myself and a few other I know reading this site what we have suspected. It is nothing more then conjecture and slanderous comments derived from personal issues from the poster.

So you make a specific direct claim here

"The charity however, never saw any of that money"

Lets see your documentation to support this claim. Have any? I suspect you dont have the finacial records and transactions of the income and where that income ended up. Have bank statements? Have letters of intent stating that was what it was for? Have wire transfers, or reciepts that show the money was used for something else?

I doubt it, and this is a simple clear illustration why this site isnt taken seriously.

Unless of course you can support such a claim with documentation.

I look forward to you proving me wrong, I suspect you wont and will get an earful of replies back telling me why the TG does this and why I should just except it as fact, with out proof. This example will give me the basis for remaining here or not, as if you cant support your claim with documentation then it speaks volumes to the nature of the site and its intent.

Deslock

**Reposting as it has been buried by other posts**

I wonder if Ruth had as much fun after she finally joined TG. Probably not, as she is not in TG anymore.

WHO HAS BEEN USING MY NAME TO WRITE INFORMATION ON TVIND ALERT FORUM, I WOULD APPRECIATE THAT WHO EVER IT IS WILL STOP I KNOW YOUR EMAIL IS PAULIE987@HOTMAIL.COM, AND I ALSO KNOW YOU HAVE BEEN TO CCTG IN THE PAST BECAUSE YOU SEEM TO KNOW ALOT OF DETAILS. PLEASE REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE. FROM DEAN.

Hello All. I am wanting to trace former students from Winestead Hall School (The Small School). could you/they please e-mail me at neilterry@hotmail.com

Hi Again Marianna

"naive" ??

No naive would imply I walked around blind and followed the path laid out in the LG like a sheep. That I followed the rules without question.

Unlike 99% of the people who went to Tvind and either had a good time or bad time, I had a blast. Myself, Lars (not the below) and Ruth at Tvind as volunteers really had fun.

It is down to how an individual sets themselves up, and they attitude they take. Ultimately Tvind is not for everyone, just like the armed forces, police, or other regimented/communial systems aren't.

Unlike the above, Tvind gives a chance for everyone to get involved regardless of their qualifications, background or attitude.... that, the best thing about it, might also be their biggest mistake.

cheers

Chris

Dear Marianna.

My ego is crushed, I've been called a loser ;O)

In my answers please bare in mind that I did not join the LG and my answers stem from the initial question asked by :>* as to why not. I enjoyed 5 years as a volunteer and saw plenty of other people who did and did not....

By Numbers, for ease...

1. To what end were the hours and expectations (i.e., the 24/7/30 hours, understaffing, high pressure, and little reprieve) set for the direct care workers at places like Red House and Ake Pecha? (and by whom, and why?). Simple question: why was the programming set up like that?

At Red House we were 2 teachers or 1 teacher and a volunteer per 8 students, I wouldn't say we were understaffed, more that as I said before the LG just doesn't allow for free time for the teachers and in such a job the teachers needed to have free time. Why was it set up like that, dunno, I'd guess that it comes down to the LG practice of 100% common time. Therefor there is no time allowed for blowing off steam and chilling out. I'd have to add though to your comments that students who came to Red House were not dumped there they came of their own choice and the programs that were set (when i was there) were very good, aimed at giving students a wider view of the world and remove their focus from the comparitively small problems they had in their own lives, team building, building responsiblity and building bonds....not easy tasks for many of the kids.

 

2. Why were those expectations reasonable to begin with? If they werent reasonable, why not?

A class of 8 students with 2 teachers makes for very good student contact time. The targets set by the school for the students were very reasonable, the demands put on the teachers with regards to personal time, not so, again that's down to LG 100% common time...in places common time works, at Red House it would have been better at 80%.

3. Why, given the FACT that these programs were adequately funded to do so by the agencies concerned with the welfare of the children placed there, were adequately trained staff not hired in adequate numbers to prevent burnout tragedies such as the one you described? Why was the suffering and sacrifice on the part of the direct care staff even necessary?

Addressed that already, 8 to 2 is adequate staffing, you won't find that level of staffing at any social centres in the UK. BUT the problem is not so much the staffing as again how the time was used, even if there had been an 8 to 4 ratio I could guarantee that the LG teachers would still have had something to do 100% of the time. Common time is 100% of the time. Burn out comes to not having time to relax. Too much to do. The LG has always been very good at making sure that idle time is put to use, just consider the building weekends, sports weekends, common weekends etc that are standard practice are all DRH, DIE, Efteskole, Freeskole and Small Schools. Don't get me wrong I don't think these weekend programs are bad I just think the LG management of the teachers time is poorly done.

4. Why was the invasion of your personal property and that of your burnt out friend, acceptable in the social scheme of the school? Why the collectivist thing to begin with? And to what end? For the betterment of the kids? The staff's "growth"?

He was teacher in the LG, he wasn't a friend any more than a person you work with is that you never see outside the office, he was LG, he signed away his right to personal anything.... lets not get dramatic "invasion" , it was golf hat, I handed it over as a loan, and it got destroyed on purpose with no thought attached to the fact that it was MINE. Why the "collectivist thing" dunno, common everything again, I didn't join the LG so I couldn't say why other than if you live in a commuity then the community shares... I lived on the border...so I didn't intend to share my stuff and the LG teacher who borrowed my hat probably didn't even stop to think that it was not part of the commune property....didn't cross his mind. The students always had their own property, the rules on common stuff applied only to the teachers. Perhaps Sigge or MD would be better qualified to say why this practice is part of the LG system.

 

5. What was, to your mind, the purpose of running schools like this? For the betterment of the students? For the broadening of the staff? Or what?

What the LG did as part of their community system varied in how it applied to students.

- common propoerty : was not applied - Common time : was applied. - common money : was not applied ***

Common time meant that no one could in effect "opt out", you took part in an experience whether you liked it or not, I liked this idea, sure I hated building, but I also learnt how to lay concrete, lay carpets, fix roofs and paint stuff... far more useful the algebra has ever been... we are brought up to view weekends as being "free time" , the LG does not follow that idea and so people do find it hard to accept that saturday and Sunday are suddenly activity weekends...

*** On my DRH trip to Asia, common money was applied as we raised money together for our trip.

On that note I'd have to say, that anyone who is suspicious of the intentions of Tvind and fund raising should do the Asia Trip becuase on that course you are 100% in charge of your money, all of it, you set your budget, you set your targets, you go earn it...then you spend it..and have a great time too.

cheers

Chris

 

Thanks to Sigge for the comments, i hope to have a nice time in Africa and i hope to experience alot. Don't worry im not going to be "brainwashed" into joining the TG i don't exactly like the way it is run. I am a very minded person and very hard to manipulate and exploit so that won't be happening to me. Still the people in humana do give 110% into their work to help the people in Africa and if it means fundraising then be it. MD.

Hi everyone, its Bill here again well i have been home for a few days now after finally escaping the clutches of humana. I have contacted my local newspaper and they seemed very intrested in what i had to tell them. They said they were going to do some "independent" research on the school i attended. I just wish that the people who are still there would see the light and realise that the organisation is just after one thing, no its not helping the people in africa, asia or south america its a little thing called money that they wants lots of. Anyway like i have said before i will keep you informed on my process in bringing the empire down. From Bill

Dear MD

I wish you the best in your stay in Africa. I am sure you are going to experience a lot. I still can remember the smell of Africa - it is said almost the whole continent is run by generators and small homely fires where the women are cooking. I will never forget the friendliness, the children running around wanting to hold my hands, the laughters. I won't forget the stories either. Children of our friends dying in diarrhoea. The hospitals that were run out of medicine.

I also remember how cold this country up north felt when I came back home. And how big my eyes got when my mom complained about the washing mashine not working. So what - here everything was working. I got frustrated about people not understanding what I had been through.

I also got sick and tired of all the bullshit in the newspapers as I saw it. They were just wanting to stop us, this nice people with our hearts on the right place - so to say. They wanted us not being able to commit ourselves to something that was humble and meaningful.

With my mind full of eagerness to do good etc. I joined the TG that I saw were a bunch of heroes working against the stream, fighting for good morals and trying to do their best. Yes, and most people in TG really work their asses of trying to do their best.

It is just that after a while one realises that when you finally have managed to work for doing four persons jobs (I guarantee the things one were held responsible of grew A LOT in amount once you were in TG), you got responisibility for one more thing. And you got yelled out in front of a lot of people in the most humiliating way, if you were not doing things well enough. The self confidence I thought I had had, was somewhere under the floor.

This is MY experience. Other people of course have other experiences. Many people who have been as far as I was in TG probably recognises what I am writing about. Unless they still are in the group. They recognise it as well, but as to keep it all together in order to not have a nervous brakedown, they probably deny it. So would I have done some years ago. The process to get psycologically trapped takes some time. It takes at least the same amount of time to get rid of the TG-thinking. It really pisses me off that this Amdi-guy is hiding hiself and people even think he doesn't exist!! People didn't believe me when I was talking myself warm about his projects (Well, I didn't know from the beginning that he existed, but that is how it really is). Now people say I am just telling exaggerated stories! It feels really bad.

But yes, many experiences were good. A lot of nice people from all around the world, travelling and all that. I am very happy about that. And the problem IS that I don't know about other organisations that this kind of wanting-to-help-people would use instead.

My wish is that the schools and organisations and companies would be taken over by non-TG-people. The good things and structures would be kept and the whole thing would get legal and the moneysending to TG-organisations would stop. And Amdi could find himself polishing Mugabe's shoes in Zimbabwe. Or sell some postcards. Ha!

So, have a nice time, really! But after AFrica, go back home and to another organisation.

Sigge

Chris:

I, for one, don't think you are a loser, just ... naive? Or maybe its that I had more life experience going into my job at Ake Pecha, as I had worked for human service agencies and hospitals, where there were high expectations for the care of patients and "clients," and a great deal of respect given to their dignity ( even if they were completely "off the wall" or unmanagable), AND an expectation, and methodology and training, which would insure at least the safety and well being of the clients and at best a positive future for them, life skills and the ability to meet the world with some independence and hope. Maybe living through young adulthood in America during the Civil Rights Movement, the Vietnam War and the Nixon administration made me much more sensitive to corruption in any form...on the right or on the left. And nothing in my subsequent life experiences -- I now have a masters degree in education and have worked in education, banking and healthcare with a myriad of different people in a myriad of different situations, I am active in my community doing civil rights work here, and I am generally very skeptical of "the establishment"-- none of those experiences -- with all their insights into the workings of "institutions" have given me any reason to think I misperceived any aspect of what went on at Ake Pecha. To the contrary... those experiences in the broader world have reinforced my perceptions. That's why I implore you to look deeper. To my thinking the issue of Tvind is not just of one black spot on the wall.

My question about why so much stress at the Red House was rhetorical; you answered it in part, exactly as I would have. Having worked at the Red House's American counterpart, I know very well the needs of the children the TG finagles into its programming. For the most part, the students are "end of the road" kids, who have either outstayed their welcomes at other schools or are too disturbed to be in regular school programming, kids who have been thrust into the care of overtaxed social service agencies desperate to find appropriate living situations, and willing to pay top dollar for decent care what my psychologist friend calls throw-away kids. These kids most often have no recourse, and, more often, no invested adults (i.e., family members) to insure that the care they are getting is adequate, or that the money that is supposedly being spent on them IS going-- ALL OF IT -- to that purpose, so theyre an easy mark for Tvinds programming -- who's gonna squawk (or know) if things run amok.

Then add to that recipe a crew of workers who have for whatever reasons in their own personalities or life situations, or romantic ideals, agreed to give themselves to a "cause" which requires them to ("give 100%) give up their personal lives, and, basically, their identities, lock, stock and barrel, (to say nothing of their incomes, etc) who find themselves required to live in a situation where they work 24 hours a day with no time off and to do so with little or no schooling or background in the management of the behavior of children with emotional disturbances. And sometimes in a country and culture (and with a language) completely foreign to them, with no easy route home.

You are putting words in MY mouth when you say I think the TG folks who worked at places like Ake Pecha or Red House were bad. Quite to the contrary, I will attest strongly to my belief that my TG counterparts, the actual grunt workers who lived with and dealt with the kids day in and day out at Ake Pecha were, like your friend who lost it, very, very GOOD people, very earnest and hard-working and they believed completely, utterly and totally in doing good only they hadnt been schooled enough to know ways to do that in the context into which theyd been plopped down. The words out of MY mouth were ironic and sarcastic, that it must have been because your burnt out friend wasnt man enough, etc., -- I saw that enough at Ake Pecha, the brow-beating, the pulling up short, the belittling we got it, too -- though my American teaching colleague and I, like you, steadfastly maintained our freedom enough to distance ourselves. Of the persons who were not decision-makers (I am thinking of four of the section masters) I cannot fault a one on their serious intentions to carry out their given responsibilities." But because those responsibilities didnt have much to do with actually treating the kids, but mostly with putting out fires (sometimes literally) and keeping up the census, and thus the income, their work was at best ineffective, and at worst (which was most of the time, unfortunately), even further damaging to the kids

But you didnt answer my questions (NOT rhetorical) and Ive added some more. In YOUR opinion:

1. To what end were the hours and expectations (i.e., the 24/7/30 hours, understaffing, high pressure, and little reprieve) set for the direct care workers at places like Red House and Ake Pecha? (and by whom, and why?). Simple question: why was the programming set up like that?

2. Why were those expectations reasonable to begin with? If they werent reasonable, why not?

3. Why, given the FACT that these programs were adequately funded to do so by the agencies concerned with the welfare of the children placed there, were adequately trained staff not hired in adequate numbers to prevent burnout tragedies such as the one you described? Why was the suffering and sacrifice on the part of the direct care staff even necessary?

4. Why was the invasion of your personal property and that of your burnt out friend, acceptable in the social scheme of the school? Why the collectivist thing to begin with? And to what end? For the betterment of the kids? The staff's "growth"?

5. What was, to your mind, the purpose of running schools like this? For the betterment of the students? For the broadening of the staff? Or what?

Enough for tonight.

Cheers,

Your friend, Marianna (aka ducky :) )

 

 

 

 

 

 

Near to the bottom of this page people are saying about if you don't earn the money fundraising then the schools give you little jobs you can do to make up for the money. I can personally say that this is "BULLSHIT" the school which i attended had us doing them jobs anyway painting the walls, gardening, construction and other things we were told that fundraising was the only way we could earn the money there was no alternitive. So whos lying here the people on this page or the people at the school. I even volunteered to pay the fundraising myself but the school said that if i did pay i would still have to go out and still make the goal set everyday or i wouldnt go to africa. By the way the fundraising goals are unrealistic most normal people dont earn in a week what we have to earn in two days. One word can describe the things humana have told me "BULLSHIT". From a very angry Bill.

I am replying to the comments that sigge last wrote. I have no intentions of joining the teacher group i am here to help people in Africa not help humana. Yes of course i will help humana help those people in Africa and why shouldn't i they have given me a chance to do what i have always wanted to do. Do you know of any other organisations who have a structed study program thats help prepare people and one that gives people a lot of real life challanges to deal with. If the people can't deal with the so called "stress" and the "problems" at the school then these people are not people who should go to Africa and not only be responsible for themselves but for 100s of other people around them. Of course you might have heard, seen and experienced things while you were in the teacher group but were you only seeing things that other people (i.e. people on this site) were telling you or were you seeing some people dedicated to helping some of the poorest people in the world!!!!!!! Remember not everyone sees the world through the same eyes as you, so please dont try and make them. Let the people who are intrested in joining humana a chance to experience it at first hand and not for you to scare them of with your exaggerated stories. MD.

Big sigh... On and on it goes. MD wrote: "Everyone who joins the program knows what their getting into before they start"... How can you be so sure? You are on your preparation period to Africa, I suppose? Still enjoying the best people from all over the world who want to work and make a difference...blablabla. I have heard it before.

You are the kind of student I would have liked to have in my team when I was teacher. You are the kind of student that "fits in", gets a lot out of the first time in the program. Be sure the teachers discuss you before and after organising events and doing fundraising. They make plans for you in the TG and so will the prject leader staff do in Africa. This is something that you will find out after a while. If you are as enthusiastic as you still seem to be, you will probably feel flattered and maybe start in the teachers group. And still you don't know what you are into! Even though you now say so. And that's my point. You are doing the program and listening to the talk about helping people. You are just one brick in a game.

To Deslock I don't know about this red ribbon campaign in Denmark, but I know about a similar one some years ago. The money collected to the Hope-campaign (Aids-work-something)during the world aids day was NOT ear-marked to the aids-information work as were told to both collectors and donors. It just went to the same place as all other money. (Paying bills, mostly).

Well, some money sure went to Africa (where it went there further nobody in the economy-office up here knows), but in my opinion it is not fair telling people the money goes to sth and the aids-projects that are talked about see nothing of it. So, there people sick in aids are used as "commercial" to get money to sth else. I have no receipts to show...I just happened to be at the office to hear what the director said to the woman working with bookkeeping and other economystuff at the office. And as I was a friend of them then I thought it was ok. My morals was like, well, is it for TG, then it is ok. You might not be that far yet, MD and other happy people. But enough time in TG and you, too will defend TG til the end of time.

Sigge

 

The idiots that come to this site to defend humana are wasting your time because its just a matter of time before the humana empire is brought down. My friend tells me that they arent allowed passwords on thier personal computers because "they share everything at y school" but of course this is a lie and he says that they have an encryption program on their computers what on earth is that for if they have nothing to hide explain that eh. From Bill

passwords? what on earth are you talking about?

Passwords, hmmm. Very "fishy". Almost as "fishy" as have locks on doors to homes and that Supermarkets LOCK after their opening time....

 

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