Swedish Radio transcript

On February 21st 2002 journalist Nuri Kino participated in a debate with Swedish UFF
president Trond Narvestad on Swedish radio.     In agreement with
Nuri we have made a transcript of the broadcast and translated it into English
(below).


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Transcript (and translation) of a debate broadcast by the Swedish
Broadcasting Corporation as part of the morning news feature on February
21st, 2002:

RADIO REPORTER: More than 2000 yellow UFF //Humana People to People//
containers are put up all over Sweden and Swedes give away tons of
clothes each year by dropping them in these containers. But the question
is: does the money really go to development aid projects in poor
countries or does it end up in the pockets of a Danish suspected
swindler? Our next subject this morning is the Swedish UFF and Danish Tvind.

Last weekend Mogens Amdi Petersen, leader of the Tvind movement, was
arrested after having been wanted by the police for almost a year. He is
suspected of having swindled the Danish state of 75 million DKK in taxes
and he has spent the last 20 years in exile living in an enormous luxury
appartment on an island in Florida. There are connections between the
Tvind movement in Denmark and Swedish UFF, since UFF was once started by
members of the core team of Tvind, what is called "the Teachers group".
This is the reason that Swedish UFF now is being questioned more and
more.

I say good morning to Nuri Kino, freelance journalist who has looked
into UFF and its business.

NURI KINO: Good morning.

RADIO REPORTER: What would you say is the strongest evidence that there
is a connection between UFF and Amdi Petersen?

NURI KINO: Well, there are for instance all the documents in our
possession showing transactions, other verifications and different kinds
of communication - letters, emails, etc. Not to mention the hundreds of
people we have talked to during our time of investigation, like
defectors from the core team, and current members of the core team who
don't dare to go public but who feel it is high time it is exposed that
Swedish UFF is controlled by Amdi Petersen and his closest collaborators
in the Teachers group.

RADIO REPORTER: The Teachers group is controlling Swedish UFF, do you mean?

NURI KINO: Absolutely.

RADIOREPORTER: Last year the Swedish people gave away almost nine
thousand tons of clothes to UFF, dropped into these containers, and many
people buy things from the UFF stores all around Sweden in the belief
that the money will go to aid to developing countries. Are all these
people being cheated?

NURI KINO: Yes, they are. First of all, the nine thousand tons are only
what is known to us. And the Swedish people have, in my opinion,
entrusted Swedish UFF with the administration of funds because these
clothes are turned into money and we are talking about at least - and
that is an absolute minimum - 25 SEK per kilogram, so if you ask me, I
would say that we are being cheated.

RADIO REPORTER: How much money does it add up to?

NURI KINO: It is hard to estimate as long as Swedish UFF does not open
its books, but we are talking about at least 200 million SEK a year.

RADIO REPORTER: Trond Narvestad is the president of Swedish UFF. I say
good morning to you.

TROND NARVESTAD: Good morning.

RADIO REPORTER: What influence does the Teachers group have over Swedish
UFF today?

TROND NARVESTAD: UFF in Sweden is controlled by our board of directors
which is elected by our members at the annual meeting. Those who run UFF
in Sweden are totally independent in relation to both the Teachers group
and Tvind and also other UFF organizations internationally. That is to
say, UFF in Sweden is part of the federation Humana People to People,
but it is still an independent and self-governed organization. I just
want to say ... when he mentioned these figures of 200 million SEK it is
the kind of numbers that are taken completely out of the blue. We
collect between eight and nine thousand tons a year. The amount 25 SEK
per kilogram that was mentioned here, that is the donation value given
by SFI //a Swedish authority for control of fundraising projects// for
the clothes we donate - not the actual turnover for the clothes ...

RADIO REPORTER: Well, maybe we should ... You were saying that UFF is an
independent organization: Nuri Kino, what did your investigation show?

NURI KINO: First of all, "UFF in Sweden", as Trond Narvestad - who is
Amdi Petersen's closest co-worker in Sweden - choose to call it, is a
front organization in which the actual commercial business, the
enterprise, is called "UFF in Stockholm". Noteably Trond Narvestad
didn't mention that fact. Secondly, Trond Narvestad claims that the
Teachers group is not in control, which makes it very remarkable that
he, being the front figure of the Teachers group in Sweden, as recent as
the autumn of 1999 wrote a letter to other - what shall we call them? -
let's call them other "lifetime members" who have signed a lifelong
contract binding them to the sect ...

RADIOREPORTER: Yes, and you brought the letter with you, didn't you? You
have it here in the studio?

NURI KINO: Yes, among a number of other documents.

TROND NARVESTAD: Look, I would like to oppose to that. I am not a front
figure of the Teachers group here in Sweden.

RADIO REPORTER: But let us hear the first few lines of this letter that
Nuri Kino has brought.

NURI KINO: "To the Teachers group in Sweden: Concerning the issue on UFF
as a member organization. What is UFF's purpose of the organizational
structure in Sweden? 1. We want to secure the control over UFF's
operation in Sweden, so that nobody can take over what we have achieved.
2. We want a good legal platform for UFF which does not jeopardize the
Teachers group's money and which gives us the best financial and legal
foundation for our work."

RADIO REPORTER: Trond Narvestad, what are your comments to this?

TROND NARVESTAD: Well, this is of course a private letter that I wrote
some years ago, but what it says has to do with UFF's operation and how
UFF should be able to keep the control of its own business. This was
written with a major recruiting campaign at hand and we had ...

RADIOREPORTER: OK, but tell me, Trond Narvestad, why does it say
"Teachers group" in the letter?

TROND NARVESTAD: It says so because some of the members of our board
happen to be members of the Teachers group.

RADIOREPORTER: Are you yourself a member of the Teachers group?

TROND NARVESTAD: Not at the moment.

RADIOREPORTER: Have you been a member of the Teachers group?

TROND NARVESTAD: I have been a member, yes.

RADIOREPORTER: When did you leave?

TROND NARVESTAD: Well, there has been a somewhat vague transition
period, you could say.

RADIOREPORTER: When did you last leave the Teachers group?

TROND NARVESTAD: No, but this is ... this is a completely private matter
and ....

NURI KINO: It wasn't more than three months ago, Trond Narvestad, that
you told me in an interview that both you and I know about the Teachers
group and you said to me: "well, you know that I'm a member of the
Teachers group."

TROND NARVESTAD: Yes, but I have been ...

NURI KINO: And now you are suddenly the president of UFF in Sweden.

TROND NARVESTAD: Yes, but is it so strange that we have changed presidents?

NURI KINO: And then it isn't the clothes from the Swedish people ...

TROND NARVESTAD: Now I'd like to ... Listen, I'd like to say something
too. It is after all us that are being dragged through the mud here and
now I'd like to say something too, because we are actually facing a
major world campaign. We did have a tax debt - and we haven't tried to
cover that up in any way - we have a tax debt and the members of our
board were held responsible privately for this debt, and that's why this
was a letter to those of our teachers who were on the board as an
assurance that they wouldn't end up in a situation demanding that they
pay with their own money for this. This happened many years ago. I would
like to point out that Kino for instance said ... and that is actually
very important now that we are discussing our development aid projects
... what it is that really comes out as a result of these clothes and
what really comes out of the money we earn. And Kino has said when he
interviewed our employees that we have very qualitative projects. Our
Aids program is probably one of the best in the world. And I would like
to point out that ...

RADIO REPORTER: But Nuri Kino's investigation does indeed show that a
lot of the money doesn't go to development aid projects at all.

TROND NARVESTAD: Yes, but we are audited by a certified accountant, we
have an approved account for the funds, we are controlled by the SFI. I
can guarantee here and now that all of our profit and all the clothes we
collect, we administer as best as we can in order to create projects
that ...

RADIO REPORTER: But why won't you make your accounts public?

TROND NARVESTAD: But they are public, they are public.

RADIO REPORTER: Are all of your books public and open to everyone?

TROND NARVESTAD: All our accounts are of ... now is ...

RADIO REPORTER: Nuri Kino, what problems have you encountered when you
have tried to investigate UFF?

NURI KINO: Swedish UFF doesn't want to answer questions about their
accounts at all, and they refuse to share their accounting and their
books with others. And we have given them quite a lot of opportunities
to do so. Then it is the case of those small-scale projects Trond
Narvestad mentions - they add up to 6 to 7 millions SEK and included in
that amount is the support of other aid organizations money, a fact that
Trond Narvestad knows very well.

TROND NARVESTAD: We receive minor contributions from other organizations
but we ourselves contribute with 3 to 5 ...

NURI KINO: Trond! Just open the books for us and put and end to the
whole discussion!

TROND NARVESTAD: We have opened the books.

NURI KINO: No, you have never done that, and besides ...

TROND NARVESTAD: You can go to our web site and review our accounting there.

NURI KINO: Trond! Trond! I'm sorry but in the annual report for fiscal
year 2000, even at the very first page, when I discussed it page by page
with you, together with Juan Flores, you had manipulated every single
line, and you have admitted it to me, Trond, that you use double-entry
book-keeping. Why do you do that?

TROND NARVESTAD: We don't use double-entry book-keeping ...

NURI KINO: You admitted it yourselves. Why?

TROND NARVESTAD: No, we don't use double-entry book-keeping... We use
... What we do is, we have UFF constructed as a number of local
subdivisions all over the country. And that is why we have ...

NURI KINO: And according to Swedish law you may not use consolidated
financial accounts for an organization constructed like yours.

TROND NARVESTAD: According to the SFI requirements we should use
consolidated financial accounts ...

NURI KINO: You have told me that you only use SFI in order to legitimate
your other operations.

TROND NARVESTAD: That isn't true.

RADIO REPORTER: We will have to wrap up this discussion now between
Trond Narvestad, president of Swedish UFF, and Nuri Kino, freelance
journalist. Finally, Nuri Kino, I would just like to ask you - those who
shop in UFF's stores or put clothes in the containers, what conclusions
should they draw from this discussion?

NURI KINO: Before people buy anything from UFF or give away their
clothes, they should ask UFF in Sweden and - most importantly - the
other UFF organizations, like UFF in Stockholm, to open their books.

RADIO REPORTER: And openly show the public where the money goes, you mean?

NURI KINO: Yes!

RADIO REPORTER: Thank you very much, Trond Narvestad, president of
Swedish UFF, and Nuri Kino, freelance journalist.

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